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CPennbo
Provisional balls??

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Tuesday April 17, 2018 9:46 PM
Ok, this topic has come up quite a bit during the High School League matches. Dealing with provisional and original balls. I've copied the rulings below. Hypothetically: lets say a kid hits a ball that may be out of bounds so they hit a provisional. It appears that it has gone past the location of the original ball. Does the provisional automatically become the ball in play? I am pretty sure of the answer but once again I'm bringing it to those of you with more experience to get your take too! Also, is there ever a time when you might think it's best to not look for the orig and to just accept stroke and distance and play the provisional? Thanks!


27-2. Provisional Ball
a. Procedure

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must:

(i)announce to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball; and

(ii)play the provisional ball before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

If a player fails to meet the above requirements prior to playing another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

(Order of play from teeing ground - see Rule 10-3)

Note: If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball.

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

If the original ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, the provisional ball becomes the ball in play, under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball, that has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1), or is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c), the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.

c. When Provisional Ball to be Abandoned
If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1. In either situation, if the player makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

Note: If a player plays a provisional ball under Rule 27-2a, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with a provisional ball subsequently abandoned under Rule 27-2c and penalties incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.
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New Year's Resolution- HAVE MORE FUN, DO MORE, SEE MORE, LAUGH MORE!
 Message #87903
leef2020
RE: Provisional balls??
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Tuesday April 17, 2018 10:36 PM
The original ball does not 'automatically' become the ball in play. However, as with the rules you've posted,


b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play
The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be.

If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).


So, one can play the provisional after 'giving up' on the original ball. However, one cannot just abandon the first ball, as opponents, etc., may see it at rest somewhere in play.
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 Message #87904 - This was a reply to message #87903
Nickesquire
RE: Provisional balls??
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Tuesday April 17, 2018 11:41 PM
QUOTED  Also, is there ever a time when you might think it's best to not look for the orig and to just accept stroke and distance and play the provisional?


Always a players option if the original cannot be seen/found. Also remember that it is the PLAYERS option to declare a ball lost or to choose to utilize their allowed time to look for it. There is no rule that says you HAVE to look for any specific amount of time before declaring it lost. It is NOT their opponents option, which seems to be lost on some people.


Assuming for the sake of argument this is a tee shot... If you hit a great provisional and there is little to no chance you could advance your original ball into as good of position as where your provisional lies 3, strategically it could benefit the player to NOT diligently look for the original and just declare it lost.

Here is an example of where you probably do NOT want to find your ball... Ball was hit into an area where you are unlikely to have a swing, and even if you did, likely cannot advance it. If there is no viable option on where to legally drop an unplayable lie, assuming you found the ball and could even declare it unplayable... you are potentially looking at really big numbers if you find it and try to play it out of an area with limited swing, stance, high grass or there is a hazard between you and safety...

Tell you kids to trust me on this one, as I probably have as much experience as anyone in turning what could have been a 6 into an 8 by trying the above...
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The goal is long and straight! But on the many times I cannot seem to hit them straight, I at least want to hit them long!
 Message #87905 - This was a reply to message #87903
leef2020
RE: Provisional balls??
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Wednesday April 18, 2018 12:57 AM
Some people seem to have misplaced the aspect of 'integrity' and sportsmanship in the game of golf.

If the ball is spotted, and 'found', by an opponent, the ball is NOT lost, no matter the golfer's degree to place one's head in sand. It, therefore, must be played 'as it lies', regardless of the player's desire to deny the obvious, and then attempt to play the 'provisional', instead of the 'original' ball.

In this day and age of 'alternative facts', 'integrity' is something golfers should strive to uphold more than ever.
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 Message #87906 - This was a reply to message #87905
RDDenn
RE: Provisional balls??

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Wednesday April 18, 2018 6:59 AM
QUOTED  Some people seem to have misplaced the aspect of 'integrity' and sportsmanship in the game of golf.

If the ball is spotted, and 'found', by an opponent, the ball is NOT lost, no matter the golfer's degree to place one's head in sand. It, therefore, must be played 'as it lies', regardless of the player's desire to deny the obvious, and then attempt to play the 'provisional', instead of the 'original' ball.

There is a lot of things going on there beyond the personal aspersions which are unnecessary to this rules discussion. From the quoted rules, if the player plays the provisional from a point where the ball is likely to be or nearer to the hole, the provisional becomes the ball in play. An opponent finding the ball after that point in time means nothing, just like a player finding his/her ball after five minutes of searching means nothing. The original ball is no longer the ball in play, it has been deemed lost. Its the rules we play under. As the pros always say, know the rules and use them to your advantage if you can.

Notwithstanding the talk of integrity, the rules say nothing about a required search for the ball. I have seen players tell their opponents not to bother looking for a ball. I have seen opponents find a ball (as I have) which the player then plays. It happens. But if the player has played the provisional under the rules, that original ball even if found would not be the ball in play.

Don't get me started though on finding a ball after hitting a provisional and having to call the original ball unplayable. It is ridiculous and an affront to the movement to speed up play to require the player to re-tee the ball, if that is the option the player chooses for the unplayable ball, when he already has re-hit a tee ball and could play that.

Lastly, integrity means playing by the rules. While one may differ on the spirit of the rules, playing by the rules is not dishonoring the game.
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 Message #87908 - This was a reply to message #87906
Alex326
RE: Provisional balls??
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Wednesday April 18, 2018 7:00 AM
c. When Provisional Ball to be Abandoned
If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball.

The key word in the rule is MUST. Therefore leef2020 is correct and the player has to play the first ball regardless who finds it.
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 Message #87909 - This was a reply to message #87906
Nickesquire
RE: Provisional balls??
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Wednesday April 18, 2018 8:17 AM
QUOTED  The key word in the rule is MUST. Therefore leef2020 is correct and the player has to play the first ball regardless who finds it.


Not necessarily Alex. Everything depends on the time frame of when the original was found and how far the provisional ball has been played. The actual circumstances have to be placed in the correct timeline to determine which rules apply. If you have already played the provisional ball 3 strokes down the fairway and then the original ball is found 6 minutes later, MUST is then replaced with CANNOT in the above referenced rule.
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The goal is long and straight! But on the many times I cannot seem to hit them straight, I at least want to hit them long!
 Message #87911 - This was a reply to message #87909
Nickesquire
RE: Provisional balls??
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Wednesday April 18, 2018 8:41 AM
QUOTED  Some people seem to have misplaced the aspect of 'integrity' and sportsmanship in the game of golf.

If the ball is spotted, and 'found', by an opponent, the ball is NOT lost, no matter the golfer's degree to place one's head in sand. It, therefore, must be played 'as it lies', regardless of the player's desire to deny the obvious, and then attempt to play the 'provisional', instead of the 'original' ball.

In this day and age of 'alternative facts', 'integrity' is something golfers should strive to uphold more than ever.


Lee, don't confuse "alternative facts" with legal options provided under the rules of golf. I agree with you totally, IF the ball is found within the allotted timeframe in bounds. You misunderstand/misrepresent my point. My point is that sometimes you can make an accurate judgment that IF you spend your 5 minutes looking for the ball (and piss most people off in the process) and your ball IS then legally found, you will be in worse shape than if the ball was never located.

It has ZERO to do with integrity. Because IF your ball IS found in bounds within the allotted time frame, legally the provisional HAS to be picked up and not further played.

As Bob correctly alluded to, a player would have to go back to the previous spot and rehit if they wanted to legally chose the option to replay from the previous spot, because a provisional cannot be put into play IF the original ball is located in bounds within the confines of other rules. And like Bob, don't get me started on the ridiculousness of that rule for anyone but serious tournament players.

Often with 4some after 4some stacked up waiting, the recreational player does not have the time to:

1-hit a poor initial shot,
2-then announce/play a provisional,
3-then go to the area they think their original ball ended up,
4-spend up to 5 minutes looking for their original ball,
5-find it,
6-decide they do not like the option to play it as it lies,
7-pick up the provisional,
8-then go back to the previous spot and replay.

Yet that is EXACTLY what playing by the letter of the rules of golf would require.
REPLY
The goal is long and straight! But on the many times I cannot seem to hit them straight, I at least want to hit them long!
 Message #87912 - This was a reply to message #87911
sngernz
RE: Provisional balls??

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Wednesday April 18, 2018 9:36 AM
QUOTED  Lee, don't confuse "alternative facts" with legal options provided under the rules of golf. I agree with you totally, IF the ball is found within the allotted timeframe in bounds. You misunderstand/misrepresent my point. My point is that sometimes you can make an accurate judgment that IF you spend your 5 minutes looking for the ball (and piss most people off in the process) and your ball IS then legally found, you will be in worse shape than if the ball was never located.

You got it, Nick. It's called knowing the Rules and using them to your advantage.
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 Message #87913 - This was a reply to message #87912
Nickesquire
RE: Provisional balls??
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Wednesday April 18, 2018 9:37 AM
QUOTED  1-hit a poor initial shot,
2-then announce/play a provisional,
3-then go to the area they think their original ball ended up,
4-spend up to 5 minutes looking for their original ball,
5-find it,
6-decide they do not like the option to play it as it lies,
7-pick up the provisional,
8-then go back to the previous spot and replay.

Yet that is EXACTLY what playing by the letter of the rules of golf would require.


Since this thread was started by Chris with her high school golf team in mind, reminded me of a personal high school golf story. In tournament play, applying the rules can often be brutal with no option for intent or common sense. You either violated the rule or you didn't.

In my senior year of high school, our H.S. team got to play in the state sectional tournament. As a group, we played over our heads there and were in position to qualify for the 36 hole finals of the state tournament.

My best friend Roger misapplied the rule on playing a provisional/original ball when he was unsure on which was required to be holed out. If unsure, he should have played both balls into the hole and later get a ruling on which one counted. However, he only played one ball, which was later determined to be the incorrect ball, and was disqualified. The rule was applied correctly, and disqualification was the only option under the rules because he did not legally hole out on all 18 holes. We then had to count the next best individual score as part of our team score, and did not qualify for state.

My memory is that he did not intend to break the rules and was not doing so to gain an advantage. He played the wrong ball because people were waiting/complaining, and it would have taken longer to play 2 balls to the hole and get a ruling later on which ball counted, as was required by the rules if in doubt.

Irony of the story was that my buddy was the type player who would call a penalty on himself that no one else was even aware of. I remember him crying on the several hour bus ride home and apologizing time after time to the other people on the team for days afterward.

Cost the team an opportunity to be excused from school for several days to play a practice round and then 36 holes at one of the best courses in North Carolina. That was 40 years ago, I still have never played there. But the rule was correctly applied.
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The goal is long and straight! But on the many times I cannot seem to hit them straight, I at least want to hit them long!
 Message #87914 - This was a reply to message #87912

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