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GreenLizard
Course Slope / Rating and PCC (Playing Course Conditions
Member Since:
    June 11, 2018


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Thursday July 7, 2022 9:08 AM
Hi Everyone,
For those of you who keep your Handicap Index, please feel free to comment.
I'm curious if any of you posting your scores have ever felt a bit cheated because most courses with poor conditions do not utilize the PCC adjustment.
I played Rancho Del Soul in Moreno Valley a few weeks ago and I didn't even bother posting my score because it wasn't fair to my handicap.
This is a difficult Pete Dye course which was most likely handicapped for slope and rating a long time ago with the assumption that the course conditions would be nice and green and lush. If you know Pete Dye courses, there are many drop off features and collection areas for errant shots to gather. When the fairways on this course become damaged due to drought and there is now dirt where grass should be, the course becomes much more difficult.
After losing at least 3 balls due to the course conditions, it was frustrating to see that no PCC adjustment at all had been applied. I then starting to look at past rounds and all the courses I've posted at. I noticed that only one course (Los Serranos North) used the PCC adjustment.
Most courses, especially in California with the drought issues, are not in the best condition and should probably have a PCC value to adjust for dirt lies and other abnormal course conditions that we encounter. Yet most all of the slope / ratings remain untouched. For example, a course with a slope of 125 with poor conditions may play more like a 128 or 130 to the average weekend golfer. Then when we shoot a bad score, it still posts to a 125. This can make a lot of golfers who play in tournaments look like sandbaggers when they are not. As a note, PCC is also used during poor weather such as high winds or extreme rain for that day.

I sure would like to here some feedback from the nice folks on Greenskeeper.org who keep a handicap.
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 Message #102446
michaelko
RE: Course Slope / Rating and PCC (Playing Course Conditions
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Thursday July 7, 2022 11:29 AM
your problem is not with the PCC.. it's with the course rating. If a course is chronically 'abnormal' conditions, then that is the defacto normal... and PCC will not catch that. And I don't think there is rating consideration to 'bad course conditions'. I think if they keep the rough at a certain length year round, they would factor missing fairways as more penal. But it's not applied because you don't like the course conditions.

To be clear, PCC is used when the majority of the golfers on a given day played over or under their index to show a pattern. If it's a monsoon, they don't use it because of the weather... they would use it because all of the golfers posted 10 over their number. I've seen it when course conditions were easier than normal... maybe a temp par 3 or usually a windy course with no wind... they adjusted the other way.

There are plenty of courses that people think are too high or low, and that affects their tournament number... the only advice is to talk to the pro to get it rerated, or don't play there.
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 Message #102448 - This was a reply to message #102446
GreenLizard
RE: Course Slope / Rating and PCC (Playing Course Conditions
Member Since:
    June 11, 2018


Favorite Golfer:
    Tiger, Justin Rose, JT
Favorite Golf Course:
    Riviera CC, Goose Creek


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Thursday July 7, 2022 1:32 PM
Thank you for the clarification of how the PCC is normally applied. Based on what you said, the course would have to make that determination after reviewing all the players who posted on their course that day and then assign a PCC adjustment. Does this mean that if I post that score before the end of the day and I see my projected handicap for the next day, that new handicap could change if the PCC is decided at the end of the day?
Maybe it's a good idea to wait to post until the next day. Or maybe it doesn't matter.

I do agree with you that if a course is historically in bad shape, then they need to re-evaluate the slope/rating or at least get better at marking ground under repair so that players could drop without feeling like they are cheating the rules.
And geez, if I didn't play all the public courses that are beat up in So Cal, I'd have no place to play. LOL
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 Message #102450 - This was a reply to message #102448
dconnally
RE: Course Slope / Rating and PCC (Playing Course Conditions

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Thursday July 7, 2022 2:06 PM
I don't think the PCC is determined by the course itself, but by the handicapping authority, which in this case is the SCGA.

They have access to player indexes, reported adjusted scores, and course differentials for all players reporting that day, and use stat analyses to determine if a PCC adjustment is needed.
REPLY
Remember, we could be at work!!
 Message #102451 - This was a reply to message #102450
RDDenn
RE: Course Slope / Rating and PCC (Playing Course Conditions

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Thursday July 7, 2022 3:26 PM
QUOTED  Maybe it's a good idea to wait to post until the next day. Or maybe it doesn't matter.

GHIN gets mad at you if you wait to post. My understanding is that the PCC only applies to your score if you post on the day you play. That is something I was told so take it for what it is worth. Meanwhile though, GHIN automatically says that scores should be posted on the day one plays for accurate handicaps, as it told me this morning when I posted my July 4th round.
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 Message #102452 - This was a reply to message #102450
PokerGuy0826
RE: Course Slope / Rating and PCC (Playing Course Conditions
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Thursday July 7, 2022 8:55 PM
It is true that only scores posted within 24 hours affect the PCC. Also true is that the PCC is actually an algorithm and is applied as a result of those scores posted in a timely manner. I hope this helps with you understanding and good luck!
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 Message #102456 - This was a reply to message #102446
FirstFlightFX-101
RE: Course Slope / Rating and PCC (Playing Course Conditions
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Friday July 8, 2022 11:29 AM
In my last 100 rounds, I've only had one scorecard receive a PCC benefit(a generous +3). I have felt many times, and anticipated that a PCC benefit could be applied to other rounds...but it usually doesn't. I know that I need to post the same day if I want to help the PCC algorithm, and, if I want to benefit, if it does get awarded.

That +3 PCC, was at an away course for me, Woodcreek GC up in Roseville, after days of rain. I got there at 11am just after the rains stopped, and the skies parted. A few were already out there before me, and only a few were playing after me...I'm pretty sure those playing, were all locals. Anyway, wet slippery sloppiness everywhere, but the greens, were impressive. I believe since the conditions made for difficulty on the par 4's & 5's, and pretty likely only local diehard/NCGA members were out there, the PCC was triggered and at full benefit. In other words, we all sucked out there.

I contemplated at the time, but didn't offer to local diehard, Peter(Deepsea14), to meet me that day for a, "hey, let's go get our feet soaking wet, work on our play right after the rain game, and catch cold while we're at it", golf invite. ;-)

*I played in a SCGA open Am Net qualifier that had 4-6" rough, with really high cross winds all day, and these really played havoc on many competitors scores. I wondered if a PCC could occur...it did not. I couldn't find anything out there stating that PCC would not apply to competition rounds, but it makes sense that it shouldn't.

Cheers,
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 Message #102457 - This was a reply to message #102446
Buckeye_Nut
RE: Course Slope / Rating and PCC (Playing Course Conditions

Member Since:
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Tuesday July 12, 2022 7:11 PM
Interesting... I learn something every day. I've never heard of a PCC adjustment. I kept a valid HC for decades and this was never in the vocabulary. I usually picked my tees based on CR alone when I was still keeping a HC. Course length was not a consideration. Ideally...CR of course par or higher is where I played from back then. It's been 5+ years since those days though.

Now... maybe senior tees are OK...LOL
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 Message #102478 - This was a reply to message #102457
Nickesquire
RE: Course Slope / Rating and PCC (Playing Course Conditions
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Tuesday July 12, 2022 9:29 PM
I believe 8 or more golfers also have to post on that date within 24 hours for the PCC to kick in. And like Chuck said... I have posted literally hundreds of rounds since that feature was added to the handicapping system. I would guess that less than a half dozen of my rounds total were affected by the PCC.
REPLY
The goal has always been long and straight! But since I can no longer hit them long, hopefully straighter could be achieved more than occasionally?
 Message #102479 - This was a reply to message #102478
Deepsea14
RE: Course Slope / Rating and PCC (Playing Course Conditions
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Wednesday July 13, 2022 8:59 AM
QUOTED  Interesting... I learn something every day. I've never heard of a PCC adjustment. I kept a valid HC for decades and this was never in the vocabulary.

Has been implemented recently when the three major handicap bodies came under on revised system using the same methods to calculate indexes.

The PCC is based exclusively on the scores returned that day before midnight. That is why it is so critical that golfers return their scores for the day by midnight . . . if you wait until Monday to post your Sunday round (and post it with a Sunday date), it will inherit any PCC for that course that day, but it will not have been a part of the analysis that went into the decision to apply a PCC.

Lots of adjustments. Posting most likely score on holes when you pick-up. Listening to music through-out the round invalidates it for posting purposes.
Nothing about the BAC of the player.

I heard on the weekend broadcast about the 18 holes 18 shots in a 5th of Scotch legend.

The Open Championship starts tomorrow in St. Andrews! More than just FUN!
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 Message #102480 - This was a reply to message #102478

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