Golf Course Reviews
Golf Course Reviews: California, Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, Utah, Florida, Hawaii!I took advantage of a $65 special at 9:36am for 1 golfer. I had never played here before so did not know what to expect other than they are preparing for a nationwide tour event in October. I figured it couldn't be too shabby.
The new clubhouse is very nice. There will be a new driving range put in within the next few months. There are at least 3 practice putting greens around the clubhouse, but none that let you practice chips or bunker shots. Perhaps I just didn't find them. Anyway they sent me out 15 minutes early with a twosome who turned out to be great guys to play with.
Pace of play was an issue due to some very slow golfers(handicapped) in front of us but they kindly let us through at the eleventh and it was clear sailing after that. The round took 3 hours and 50 minutes exactly.
The course is absolutely fantastic. What a great traditional layout!! Everything looks benign but the course is very challenging around the greens. Fast surfaces with gentle slopes require shots be left below the hole. Quite a few elevated greens out there. Bunkers are perfect now! I was three for three out of the bunkers getting up and down for par. Fairways were running hard. I was getting at least 40 yards of roll on every drive and it cause me to roll through a few of them, making things interesting. I saws no problem with the tee boxes. I wasn't expecting all the big trees and shade and it was very welcome in my mind, especially when the temperature was reaching near 100. I shot a respectable 74 from the tips, 2 over par, with four bogies and two birdies.
I plan on trying to qualify for Soboba Classic Nationwide tournament at either Yucaipa or Champions Club coming up very soon. Wish me luck! Thanks!
I recommend this course to anyone who knows how to take care of a golf course. Replace those divots and fix those ball marks. This is truly a special place for us SoCal golfers to enjoy! Go try it and see if you don't agree!
The new clubhouse is very nice. There will be a new driving range put in within the next few months. There are at least 3 practice putting greens around the clubhouse, but none that let you practice chips or bunker shots. Perhaps I just didn't find them. Anyway they sent me out 15 minutes early with a twosome who turned out to be great guys to play with.
Pace of play was an issue due to some very slow golfers(handicapped) in front of us but they kindly let us through at the eleventh and it was clear sailing after that. The round took 3 hours and 50 minutes exactly.
The course is absolutely fantastic. What a great traditional layout!! Everything looks benign but the course is very challenging around the greens. Fast surfaces with gentle slopes require shots be left below the hole. Quite a few elevated greens out there. Bunkers are perfect now! I was three for three out of the bunkers getting up and down for par. Fairways were running hard. I was getting at least 40 yards of roll on every drive and it cause me to roll through a few of them, making things interesting. I saws no problem with the tee boxes. I wasn't expecting all the big trees and shade and it was very welcome in my mind, especially when the temperature was reaching near 100. I shot a respectable 74 from the tips, 2 over par, with four bogies and two birdies.
I plan on trying to qualify for Soboba Classic Nationwide tournament at either Yucaipa or Champions Club coming up very soon. Wish me luck! Thanks!
I recommend this course to anyone who knows how to take care of a golf course. Replace those divots and fix those ball marks. This is truly a special place for us SoCal golfers to enjoy! Go try it and see if you don't agree!
First time playing here.
Played from the tips and shot even par!! I needed a little more local knowledge. Next time I'll break par here.
Great course. Very fun track.
A couple of demanding par three's.
Greens are almost fully recovered.....give em a week and a half. But they roll pretty good and are not very bumpy at all. Afterall, I was making putts left and right out there.
Great service in the pro shop and all around. We didn't have a set tee time, just two of us. The head pro Brian, took us out on the course and paired us up with another lone twosome on the fifth hole. He even let us finish on the fourth so that we could play an entire 18 holes.
Really good Breakfast burrito at the snack bar.
I will be back for sure.
Played from the tips and shot even par!! I needed a little more local knowledge. Next time I'll break par here.
Great course. Very fun track.
A couple of demanding par three's.
Greens are almost fully recovered.....give em a week and a half. But they roll pretty good and are not very bumpy at all. Afterall, I was making putts left and right out there.
Great service in the pro shop and all around. We didn't have a set tee time, just two of us. The head pro Brian, took us out on the course and paired us up with another lone twosome on the fifth hole. He even let us finish on the fourth so that we could play an entire 18 holes.
Really good Breakfast burrito at the snack bar.
I will be back for sure.
Pleasantly surprised!!
This was only my second time at La Mirada. My first experience was perhaps sixteen years ago. I almost didn't remember the fact that I had been there before, until half way through the round it finally dawned on me that I had played a junior tournament there as a twelve year old.
Everything was in pretty good shape.
I played the course from the tips, which I usually do, and because I tee off from where most others golfers don't, I see less divot damage than most other reviewers might report here on GK, but on the whole I believe the tee boxes were in great shape and for the most part were level. The course is well marked, with the exception of a few tee signs that are damaged.
The grass in the rough on this golf course is.......I don't know what you call it, Kikuyu or Bermuda. It does not allow for any roll. There is a premium placed on hitting the narrow fairways which, I think, consist of the same grass mown down to a tight surface.
The well defined fairways appear to be and are indeed tightly mowed, and their appearance would lead one to believe that much roll could be afforded by the smooth surface. However, the same roll-restricting effect on balls that land in the rough, is found on even a well struck shot in the fairway. Fortunately, the underlying earth is firm and compact enough to provide enough bounce to propel the ball forward at least more than a trivial amount.
This is what protects this rather short layout from being a bombers paradise. In addition, the trees at this course are large and well grown. Players that find themselves in them will surely have fits if they are not proficient at escaping from nearly impossible positions, given that many of the holes follow the canyons which bisect the flowing hills which this layout intertwines and surrounds, providing plenty of uneven lies.
I found the greens to be a bit different than the rest of the course. The texture is smooth. The grass is kinda weird. It almost looks fake in spots. I think they are bent greens but I am not an expert at grass classifications. There is plenty of ball mark damage left by players on the course. I witnessed several rude players of Asian decent walk right by their ball marks without fixing them. Of course, I took the liberty of doing it myself all day, but I didn't mind since the round was taking almost 6 hours anyway. For the most part the greens roll very true and are about 9.0 at most on the stimp meter. I made alot of putts and was very pleased with the conditions.
I eagled the Par 5 7th hole. My drive was 310 up the hill, and my 2-iron from 210 yards, uphill, sent my ball within 10 feet from the hole. The putt was difficult and hard breaking, but I made it. It was the highlight of the day on a round of 70, even par.
Great all-beef hot dogs on the grill at the turn. They will grill onions for you if you want, too. Good Service. Will be back....
This was only my second time at La Mirada. My first experience was perhaps sixteen years ago. I almost didn't remember the fact that I had been there before, until half way through the round it finally dawned on me that I had played a junior tournament there as a twelve year old.
Everything was in pretty good shape.
I played the course from the tips, which I usually do, and because I tee off from where most others golfers don't, I see less divot damage than most other reviewers might report here on GK, but on the whole I believe the tee boxes were in great shape and for the most part were level. The course is well marked, with the exception of a few tee signs that are damaged.
The grass in the rough on this golf course is.......I don't know what you call it, Kikuyu or Bermuda. It does not allow for any roll. There is a premium placed on hitting the narrow fairways which, I think, consist of the same grass mown down to a tight surface.
The well defined fairways appear to be and are indeed tightly mowed, and their appearance would lead one to believe that much roll could be afforded by the smooth surface. However, the same roll-restricting effect on balls that land in the rough, is found on even a well struck shot in the fairway. Fortunately, the underlying earth is firm and compact enough to provide enough bounce to propel the ball forward at least more than a trivial amount.
This is what protects this rather short layout from being a bombers paradise. In addition, the trees at this course are large and well grown. Players that find themselves in them will surely have fits if they are not proficient at escaping from nearly impossible positions, given that many of the holes follow the canyons which bisect the flowing hills which this layout intertwines and surrounds, providing plenty of uneven lies.
I found the greens to be a bit different than the rest of the course. The texture is smooth. The grass is kinda weird. It almost looks fake in spots. I think they are bent greens but I am not an expert at grass classifications. There is plenty of ball mark damage left by players on the course. I witnessed several rude players of Asian decent walk right by their ball marks without fixing them. Of course, I took the liberty of doing it myself all day, but I didn't mind since the round was taking almost 6 hours anyway. For the most part the greens roll very true and are about 9.0 at most on the stimp meter. I made alot of putts and was very pleased with the conditions.
I eagled the Par 5 7th hole. My drive was 310 up the hill, and my 2-iron from 210 yards, uphill, sent my ball within 10 feet from the hole. The putt was difficult and hard breaking, but I made it. It was the highlight of the day on a round of 70, even par.
Great all-beef hot dogs on the grill at the turn. They will grill onions for you if you want, too. Good Service. Will be back....
This is the best course in Southern California at this time for the money and the conditions and the friendly staff. I play here all the time and I love it.
Too bad you can't get a tee time. LOL ;P
Too bad you can't get a tee time. LOL ;P
Hadn't played here in about 15 years.
The course has really grown up physically and aesthetically since then, but the greens fees are still modest. The course plays a bit longer than the scorecard indicates, and if you're even just slightly off your game here, you will find that it is a bit more challenging than the slope and rating indicates.
Played today. 7:16am tee time with my Dad. We got paired up with another twosome. We took a cart and paid $42 each, $28 to walk and $14 for the cart. Pace of play was fairly swift although I felt that we as a group could have moved a little faster. 3 hours and 45 minutes tops. It wasn't bad for a Friday morning.
The greens are some of the fastest I have seen in recent memory. I mean these were some really nice greens. If the fees were $50 more it would still be worth putting on greens like these. I did see a fair amount of unrepaired ball marks, or rather ones that were not fixed correctly. But whatever, I fixed 'em.
Everything is in great shape here. Like a country club, really. The only thing this course lacks is a big huge practice facility. The course alone is worth every penny. The small forty-yard netted practice area is still good for hitting a small bucket to just warm up the muscles and get loose and stretched. The practice putting green is quite sloped and undulating, but is in pristine condition. Regarding speed and pace, I found it's surface similar to that of the greens out on the course.
The only staff member I came in contact with was the starter. He didn't say much, but he was straight to the point. He got me checked in, paid up, hooked up with a golf cart in less than one minute. He let me know that he'd be calling us to let us know when it was time to tee off. Great Service!! I got the tee time through American Golf's website the day before, Thursday. It was the last tee time before a huge tournament, so I figure I got really lucky to get the time.
All in all, it was a great day playing a fantastically conditioned golf course, a great value and an interesting layout.
BTW.... for the first time around in 15 years, I shot a pretty good score of 74 from the back tees. I'll be back to make the puts that I missed.
Between San Dimas Canyon and Santa Anita, the golf is great, living in Duarte!!
However they are still very receptive to approach shots.
The course has really grown up physically and aesthetically since then, but the greens fees are still modest. The course plays a bit longer than the scorecard indicates, and if you're even just slightly off your game here, you will find that it is a bit more challenging than the slope and rating indicates.
Played today. 7:16am tee time with my Dad. We got paired up with another twosome. We took a cart and paid $42 each, $28 to walk and $14 for the cart. Pace of play was fairly swift although I felt that we as a group could have moved a little faster. 3 hours and 45 minutes tops. It wasn't bad for a Friday morning.
The greens are some of the fastest I have seen in recent memory. I mean these were some really nice greens. If the fees were $50 more it would still be worth putting on greens like these. I did see a fair amount of unrepaired ball marks, or rather ones that were not fixed correctly. But whatever, I fixed 'em.
Everything is in great shape here. Like a country club, really. The only thing this course lacks is a big huge practice facility. The course alone is worth every penny. The small forty-yard netted practice area is still good for hitting a small bucket to just warm up the muscles and get loose and stretched. The practice putting green is quite sloped and undulating, but is in pristine condition. Regarding speed and pace, I found it's surface similar to that of the greens out on the course.
The only staff member I came in contact with was the starter. He didn't say much, but he was straight to the point. He got me checked in, paid up, hooked up with a golf cart in less than one minute. He let me know that he'd be calling us to let us know when it was time to tee off. Great Service!! I got the tee time through American Golf's website the day before, Thursday. It was the last tee time before a huge tournament, so I figure I got really lucky to get the time.
All in all, it was a great day playing a fantastically conditioned golf course, a great value and an interesting layout.
BTW.... for the first time around in 15 years, I shot a pretty good score of 74 from the back tees. I'll be back to make the puts that I missed.
Between San Dimas Canyon and Santa Anita, the golf is great, living in Duarte!!
However they are still very receptive to approach shots.
I've played and watched the golf course mature all throughout the dormant fairways of the winter and the recent punching and overseeding of the green complexes, and like "bassvista" mentioned in the post below this one, they are now lush and are very close to being in perfect shape. As much as I play this golf course, it's no mystery to me that I feel overwhelmingly pleased with every round I've played in the last month. I actually saw very few ball marks other than my own and when I did see others I fixed them.
The greens still need a week or so, but with the high temperatures and windy conditions of late, I imagine that the greens will firm up quite a bit and will soon be absolutely immaculate. Currently they roll true but are just a hair slow for my taste. I like my greens like billiard tables. And you know what? These greens are getting there!
The fairways are perfect. They are firming up quite well. I'm hitting drives from 310 to 345 with the extra bounce and roll for the last two weeks.
The back tee bxes on #1 and #9 are now roped off again for over seeding. The rest of the tee boxes are in great shape. I havent notice any eyesores with the exception of the areas at the start and end of the concrete cart pathways. These areas are bare of any grass, and it seems impossible to prevent further damage since most or all of these areas are in the direct path of access to entryways and exits of the cartpaths. Besides that, Santa Anita is playing like country club conditions.
Part of the ongoing renovation proect at Santa Aninta is upgrading the bunkers surrounding all the green complexes. True, this sand is currently very fluffy and requires getting adjusted to, but give that sand some time so settle and these bunkers are going to being some of the purest bunkers for any local municipal course, and even for some of the higher end courses out there.
Right now the project to replace all sand and perform all necessary repairs to the greenside bunkers is about 70% complete.
The fairway bunkers. like the one on the left side of hole #1 could use just a little bit of the new sand mixed in to reduce the contrast between the shades of color in the sand.
I think it would be logical for the most part to leave the fairway bunkers in the condition that they exist today. They provide a firm hitting surface which I think seems preferable when hitting a full shot into the green or even when laying up.
The greens still need a week or so, but with the high temperatures and windy conditions of late, I imagine that the greens will firm up quite a bit and will soon be absolutely immaculate. Currently they roll true but are just a hair slow for my taste. I like my greens like billiard tables. And you know what? These greens are getting there!
The fairways are perfect. They are firming up quite well. I'm hitting drives from 310 to 345 with the extra bounce and roll for the last two weeks.
The back tee bxes on #1 and #9 are now roped off again for over seeding. The rest of the tee boxes are in great shape. I havent notice any eyesores with the exception of the areas at the start and end of the concrete cart pathways. These areas are bare of any grass, and it seems impossible to prevent further damage since most or all of these areas are in the direct path of access to entryways and exits of the cartpaths. Besides that, Santa Anita is playing like country club conditions.
Part of the ongoing renovation proect at Santa Aninta is upgrading the bunkers surrounding all the green complexes. True, this sand is currently very fluffy and requires getting adjusted to, but give that sand some time so settle and these bunkers are going to being some of the purest bunkers for any local municipal course, and even for some of the higher end courses out there.
Right now the project to replace all sand and perform all necessary repairs to the greenside bunkers is about 70% complete.
The fairway bunkers. like the one on the left side of hole #1 could use just a little bit of the new sand mixed in to reduce the contrast between the shades of color in the sand.
I think it would be logical for the most part to leave the fairway bunkers in the condition that they exist today. They provide a firm hitting surface which I think seems preferable when hitting a full shot into the green or even when laying up.
I called the course today and they said that they did not punch their greens. I spoke to two different staff members and they both confirmed that the only green that got punched was the putting green.
I have a tee time on tuesday.
I have a tee time on tuesday.
played again today. Similar to my last round, I had four birdies and five bogies. Back to back birdies on 9 and 10, 14 and 15.
People need to repair ballmarks!! I've come to the conclusion that most of the general golfing public are blind, and/or have no sense to the fact that when a ball lands on the green there is some damage that takes place which can be fixed.
Oh the hell with it anyway.....most of the ballmarks that do get fixed are done incorrectly and half-ass!! Nevermind! Nobody repair your marks!! I'll do it for you, I guess!!?
People need to repair ballmarks!! I've come to the conclusion that most of the general golfing public are blind, and/or have no sense to the fact that when a ball lands on the green there is some damage that takes place which can be fixed.
Oh the hell with it anyway.....most of the ballmarks that do get fixed are done incorrectly and half-ass!! Nevermind! Nobody repair your marks!! I'll do it for you, I guess!!?
oops! I meant to say that #14 green needs a little TLC. it's bumpier than the rest. I think this is because it is the highest point on the golf course.
Warning: I like to write alot, so if you are not prepared to read, please move on to the next review!!!
Played 1/7/2007. I played here the week before, and thanks to the recent winds, the fairways have firmed up since then, and are providing some bonus distance on your drives. I reached the par 5 3rd in two and kept it on the green with a 250 yard 3-wood. So, obviously the greens are very receptive, not to mention immaculate, thanks to me repairing 5-6 ballmarks per hole. The only green that really needs some TLC is #13. It's a bit bumpier than the rest of them. I think this is because this green is the highest point on the course.
Most of the tee boxes are in good shape. #13 tee needs a little work, nothing to really complain about. I only visited one bunker on #17 and it was in great shape.
I'm an 0.7 handicap. The blue tees playng all the way back, I reached every par 5 in two shots, but went 0-for-3 on my eagle attempts, even missing one of the comebackers for birdie from inside of 3 feet. I shot even par-71 with 5 birdies on #'s 3,6,7,10, and 13. I made three bogies on #'s 8, 15, and 16. I had one double bogey on #4. I made pars on the remaining 9 holes. Not a bad day, but I just couldn't get the flat stick working, piling up a whopping 34 putts for the day. But, the par 3's absolutely killed me(4-over par combined). I easily could have shot in the low sixties!!
Fairways 9/14, GIR 14/18, 289yard average drive in the fairway.
If you live within twenty minutes of this course there is simply no way you can get a better course for the green fee without driving a couple hours in any direction and eating up alot of gas money. This is the La Purisima of Arcadia in my opinion. I grew up plaing at La Purisima and the only thing missing here is some elevation changes and the 40 mph winds that you get up there!!
Played 1/7/2007. I played here the week before, and thanks to the recent winds, the fairways have firmed up since then, and are providing some bonus distance on your drives. I reached the par 5 3rd in two and kept it on the green with a 250 yard 3-wood. So, obviously the greens are very receptive, not to mention immaculate, thanks to me repairing 5-6 ballmarks per hole. The only green that really needs some TLC is #13. It's a bit bumpier than the rest of them. I think this is because this green is the highest point on the course.
Most of the tee boxes are in good shape. #13 tee needs a little work, nothing to really complain about. I only visited one bunker on #17 and it was in great shape.
I'm an 0.7 handicap. The blue tees playng all the way back, I reached every par 5 in two shots, but went 0-for-3 on my eagle attempts, even missing one of the comebackers for birdie from inside of 3 feet. I shot even par-71 with 5 birdies on #'s 3,6,7,10, and 13. I made three bogies on #'s 8, 15, and 16. I had one double bogey on #4. I made pars on the remaining 9 holes. Not a bad day, but I just couldn't get the flat stick working, piling up a whopping 34 putts for the day. But, the par 3's absolutely killed me(4-over par combined). I easily could have shot in the low sixties!!
Fairways 9/14, GIR 14/18, 289yard average drive in the fairway.
If you live within twenty minutes of this course there is simply no way you can get a better course for the green fee without driving a couple hours in any direction and eating up alot of gas money. This is the La Purisima of Arcadia in my opinion. I grew up plaing at La Purisima and the only thing missing here is some elevation changes and the 40 mph winds that you get up there!!
I hadn't played here in more than a few years. Pleasantly surprised. I found great conditons everywhere except the back tee boxes on 16 and 18.
Played the morning of 6/9/2009. Everything was wet from rain the previous night. More like a thich dew(marine layer). Beside everything being wet, which made for little roll in the fairway and slow green speeds(Although the greens are very smooth and I expect that they are really fast when they dry out).
The course it just as great as it was the first time I played it. I have played there many times now.
Maintenance seems to keep thier mower blades running, while your putting and in your backswing, but I guess it forces you to concentrate harder. I can't help but appreciate the maintainance crews there, since they do such a great job of keeping the course in good shape.
The starter let me go right away. It helps playing on a weekday and getting there at 5:30am. I got put behind a couple groups, but was let through and finished my round before 9 o'clock.
I shot 38-38-76 with one double bogey and two bogies, from the back tees, missing every birdie opportunity I had. Made 15 pars!! =)
My Dad and I are going again tommorrow 7:30 ish. We have a tee time for two. Any joiners???
Mountain Meadows is great!!
Played the morning of 6/9/2009. Everything was wet from rain the previous night. More like a thich dew(marine layer). Beside everything being wet, which made for little roll in the fairway and slow green speeds(Although the greens are very smooth and I expect that they are really fast when they dry out).
The course it just as great as it was the first time I played it. I have played there many times now.
Maintenance seems to keep thier mower blades running, while your putting and in your backswing, but I guess it forces you to concentrate harder. I can't help but appreciate the maintainance crews there, since they do such a great job of keeping the course in good shape.
The starter let me go right away. It helps playing on a weekday and getting there at 5:30am. I got put behind a couple groups, but was let through and finished my round before 9 o'clock.
I shot 38-38-76 with one double bogey and two bogies, from the back tees, missing every birdie opportunity I had. Made 15 pars!! =)
My Dad and I are going again tommorrow 7:30 ish. We have a tee time for two. Any joiners???
Mountain Meadows is great!!
I admit, it might take another try or two to get used to it. I wasn't trying to bash the course. I was just trying to give my honest oppinion and I was dissapointed. I had anticipated playing there for a couple years and that's just how I saw it. Kudos to you for having a different oppinion.
I'd suggest playing elsewhere at this time of the year, of course! I knew to expect the heat. I'm just glad I wasn't playing in Laughlin that day where it was 130 degrees.
I'm one the best putters alive( excuse me if I do say so) and I had a good stroke going that day, but struggled to have a putt not bounce off-line as a result of that "funny grain". I've played down south before plenty of times were there is grain everpresent. But there, it either goes in one direction or the other. The grass they use on the greens at Desert Willow is specially bred to hold up to the heat and as a result is much for fiberous than the greens of the other courses I mentioned. Maybe they change the grass when the weather cools down. I just think they need to reevaluate the type of grass they are using and perhaps use a tiny bit more water, even reclaimed water .
Everything else is great on the course with the exception of the hidden rakes. I added up the minutes we waited on groups ahead of us to walk all the way around the bunkers to find the rake boxes and it sure added a lot of time to the round. If the bunkers had a few rakes easily visable like anywhere else, it would facilitate the "easter rake contest" on every fairway bunker and greenside bunker. To boot, I only got in two of those bunkers and I just assumed raking it with my feet. Which, by the way, does a better job than most players care to do with a rake anyway.
However, I assume if the rakes were left out at that couse in that weather they would be too hot to pick up anyway!! =)
Whadayudo?!! =)
A self raking bunker would be a great idea...just like the automatic kitty litter box! =)
However, I can't stop myself from saying that the layouts were boring. In great shape, but just plain dull.
I'll shut up now...thanks
I'd suggest playing elsewhere at this time of the year, of course! I knew to expect the heat. I'm just glad I wasn't playing in Laughlin that day where it was 130 degrees.
I'm one the best putters alive( excuse me if I do say so) and I had a good stroke going that day, but struggled to have a putt not bounce off-line as a result of that "funny grain". I've played down south before plenty of times were there is grain everpresent. But there, it either goes in one direction or the other. The grass they use on the greens at Desert Willow is specially bred to hold up to the heat and as a result is much for fiberous than the greens of the other courses I mentioned. Maybe they change the grass when the weather cools down. I just think they need to reevaluate the type of grass they are using and perhaps use a tiny bit more water, even reclaimed water .
Everything else is great on the course with the exception of the hidden rakes. I added up the minutes we waited on groups ahead of us to walk all the way around the bunkers to find the rake boxes and it sure added a lot of time to the round. If the bunkers had a few rakes easily visable like anywhere else, it would facilitate the "easter rake contest" on every fairway bunker and greenside bunker. To boot, I only got in two of those bunkers and I just assumed raking it with my feet. Which, by the way, does a better job than most players care to do with a rake anyway.
However, I assume if the rakes were left out at that couse in that weather they would be too hot to pick up anyway!! =)
Whadayudo?!! =)
A self raking bunker would be a great idea...just like the automatic kitty litter box! =)
However, I can't stop myself from saying that the layouts were boring. In great shape, but just plain dull.
I'll shut up now...thanks
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